My wife and I play Grim Dawn and other ARPGs on a regular basis. I run Ubuntu 23.04 (Snap-less, of course); she runs Windows 10. I ALWAYS host, and that should tell you something…
A grim dawn player, how is the game? Their updates actually add things these days? I have the game but not played it too much but I was surprised they still update it
It’s not that it’s broken, it’s that the open source driver stack and AMD cards are a superior experience. The Nvidia Linux driver is just like the Windows driver.
I think it’s more that they are broken (esp. on Wayland) and that they are closed source and that they are not pre-installed in Mesa and that they lack basic features such as GAMMA_LUT for night light on Wayland…
Except people do notice the change, as a workaround many still rely on certain aspects of X via Xwayland in an attempt to keep things running. Even Steam doesn’t support Wayland.
Fact is, Wayland’s been in development for a good decade or more, it’s still in a state of perpetual beta, and that’s a situation that isn’t likely to change any time soon.
You do realize that the whole of meaningful architecture we have builds on, and often gives way for legacy ones? XWayland is made by Wayland, because obviously not every software will port overnight or ever. That’s a positive thing.
It’s almost like the linux community is not controlled by a dictator like Apple, where they can just say “we are using this API from next version, if you wanna work, port”. Wayland required a critical mass before it actually started flying - but it definitely flies now.
Xwayland makes use of legacy features of X. If we were to compleately drop all aspects of X tomorrow, the Linux desktop would essentially compleately break and become unusable.
The fact is, at this point in time after 10 years or more of development, Wayland is still very much in a state of perpetual beta. At this point in time, and for the foreseeable future, Wayland involves compromises that make it unsuitable for many users.
Hopefully things improve in time, the problem is development is progressing at snails pace.
To clarify on why it’s especially terrifying, for the nVidia drivers to be closed source, they’ve been allowed to add binaries into the Linux kernel. Nobody but nVidia knows what those binaries actually contain.
Raytracing is mostly fucked though, otherwise I’d be gaming exclusively on Linux as well. Aside from that though I’ve never had any issues with Nvidia on Linux.
What do you mean it’s fucked? I’ve read this before but honestly Cyberpunk 2077 runs way better for me on Linux and I think it looks great. Never checked settings in detail since it seemed to do a good job of automatically selecting graphics settings. I have an Nvidia card on pop_OS and it works better than I ever thought gaming on Linux could!
Is that using Dynamic Res Scaling? I was also impressed with the ray tracing performance of cp2077 on linux until I realized that was doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
The reality is, it’s going through a translation layer, so it’s simply not possible for linux to run better than windows on the same hw, unless there is something hampering the windows config. But it does run better than I thought it could.
To be fair, Nvidia support on Linux has been historically quite poor, with users having to manually install drivers (something the average person shouldn’t have to think about). Though even that has gotten much better recently, with Debian now allowing forks to have proprietary drivers built in.
I would say Nvidia historically (10+ years) had great support for Linux.
They were officially releasing drivers with feature parity to Windows. To get real manufacturer supported drivers, for a GPU none the less, was a breath of fresh air. This was in the era of having to be careful what wifi card you choose.
Sure, you had to manually install the drivers, which was not the norm with Linux, but that was still the case with Windows too. It wasn’t until Windows 7 that “search for a driver” feature in Windows actually did something.
It’s really only been recently, with AMD releasing official GPU drivers for the kernel, that things have changed. If you were putting a GPU in a Linux computer 10 years ago it absolutely would have been Nvidia.
By the way, Ubuntu and probably most Ubuntu-based distros (like Linux Mint) also have driver manager (ubuntu-drivers) that handles drivers similarly to the “search for driver” feature. Except that ubuntu-drivers also let’s you select between multiple drivers and let’s you easily uninstall them.
Can confirm, recently installed it on a friends’ dell G3 laptop and I was quite impressed to see that it recognized both the nvidia graphics card and the intel GPU without a hitch, and installed the nvidia proprietary driver directly from the live usb.
Then I installed it on my wife’s mother thinkpad x260, because she was bored with Windows “getting in [her] way” (her words, not mine) and wanted to try something else (70 years old grandma, main usage is web browsing, mails, some accounting on LibreOffice Calc, Zoom with her friends and… that’s all). Everything worked out of the box (well, the x260 is pretty standard by the way). I showed her how to upgrade, how to use her software, how to install or uninstall software from the package manager GUI, and how to use workspaces. She didn’t call for help once, and, for the moment, when I ask her about it she’s quite pleased with it.
I’m a Debian and OpenBSD guy but recently got a second hand thinkpad yoga X390 laptop and decided to give Pop a try on it. From touchscreen to touchpad gestures to automatic screen rotation in tent or tablet mode - everything works out of the box (except for the fingerprint reader, but well, we’re used to that). Basically it’s Ubuntu 22.04 LTS without the snap hassle and a recent kernel (6.4 right now). For what I tested it on, it’s always been a pleasant experience.
Of course, YMMV, and I might as well go back to my trusty Debian Stable + flatpak setup if things goes awry but right now I’m quite impressed with what they’ve managed to do.
I just checked Lenovo from Google Search. I only checked the British site, but if you select “No OS” instead of Windows 11 Home, it’s -90£ (115USD)!
Holy hell! I didn’t realize Windows license makes up such a big part of the price.
Now I wonder how much of the price it could be with the cheap Umax laptops sold in Czech republic and Slovakia. They start at €130 with Windows Pro license.
I use Windows for work and gaming, MacOS for app development (mostly because I can code for iOS and Android in one environment), and ChromeOS for my daily browsing.
I just enjoy how chrome always works when I need to just browse the internet or buy something online without issue.
They have a point. I’m in the market for a new laptop and I have, so far, returned two of them.
First, I tried a Huawei Matebook 16. I was foolish, but I thought it was “easy”. No NVidia, no dGPU at all - just part that looked very standard. It was based on the info I had gathered from a few years of Linux usage: “Basically avoid NVidia and you’re good”. It was anything but. Broken suspend, WiFi was horrible, random deadlocks, extreme slowness at times (as if the RYZEN 7 wasn’t Ryzen 7-ing) to become less smooth than my 5 year old Intel laptop, and broken audio codec (Senary Audio) that didn’t work at all on the live, and worked erratically on the installed system using generic hd-audio drivers.
I had a ~€1500 budget, but I raised it to buy a €1700 ThinkPad P16s AMD. No dGPU to speak of, sold with pre loaded Linux, boasting Canonical and Red Hat hardware certifications.
I had:
Broken standby on Linux
GPU bugs and screen flickering on Linux
Various hangs and crashed
Malfunctioning wifi and non working 6e mode. I dug, and apparently the soldered Wi-Fi adapter does not have any kind of Linux support at all, but the kernel uses a quirk to load the firmware of an older Qualcomm card that’s kinda similar on it and get it to work in Wi-Fi 6 compatibility mode.
Boggles my mind that the 2 biggest enterprise Linux vendors took this laptop, ran a “thorough hardware certification process” on it and let it pass. Is this a pass? How long have they tried it? Have they even tried suspending?
Of course, that was a return. But when I think about new laptops and Windows 11, basically anything works. You don’t have to pay attention to anything: suspend will work, WiFi will work, audio and speakers as well, if you need fractional scaling you aren’t in for a world of pain, and if you want an NVidia dGPU, it does work.
Furthermore, the Windows 11 compatible CPU list is completely unofficial arbitrary, since you can still sideload Windows 11 on “unsupported” hardware and it will run with a far higher success rate than Linux on a random laptop you buy in store now. Like, it has been confirmed to run well on ancient Intel CPUs with screens below the minimum resolution. It’s basically a skin over 10 and there are no significant kernel modifications.
To be clear: I don’t like Windows, but I hate this post as a consumer of bleeding edge hardware because it hides the problem under the rug - most new hardware is Windows-centric, and Linux supported options are few and far between. Nowdays not even the manufacturer declaring Linux support is enough. This friend of mine got a Dell XPS 13 Plus Developer Edition, and if he uses ANY ISO except the default Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 audio doesn’t work at all! And my other friend with a Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition has various GPU artifacts on the screen on anything except the relative Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 image. It’s such a minefield.
I have effectively added €500 to my budget, to now reach an outrageous €2000 for a premium Linux laptop with no significant trade-offs (mostly, I want a good screen and good performance). I am considering taking a shot in the dark and pre ordering the Framework 16, effectively swaying from traditional laptop makers entirely and hoping a fully customized laptop by a company that has been long committed to Linux support will be different.
Have you tried updating the kernel? If it’s been rated to work with a certain Linux distribution and it doesn’t work on yours then chances are that the distribution they tested with is using a newer kernel.
That being said new hardware can be quite problematic on Linux. I personally haven’t had issues with Huawei Matebooks provided I installed the newer kernels, but Apple Silicon was a nightmare.
I’ve never had suspend work correctly on Linux. It’s always been buggy in Windows as well. You can boot from SSDs about just as fast as waking from suspend, so I don’t even try to use it anymore.
Probably marketing speech for “an intern tested it once with the default setup and he reported there were no errors”
Broken standby on Linux
That is sometimes broken because of broken UEFI/ACPI implementations which the Windows drivers were made to respect and work around, but the Linux drivers who are often developed not by the hardware manufacture himself but rather 3rd parties who implement them according to the available docs/specifications, will then result in a semi-broken functionality because implementing something according to the specification doesn’t mean much unfortunately if there are quirks or bugs you have to circumvent as well. This improves over time though with more adoption of Linux. When you compare the hardware support of Linux today vs. 20 years ago, it’s become much, much better already due to more developers and users working on it / reporting issues, and also more and more hardware vendors becoming actually involved in the Linux driver development.
GPU bugs and screen flickering on Linux
Various hangs and crashed
Definitely not normal. But it’s likely that it’s just a small configuration or driver issue. Since you didn’t provide any details, I just leave it as “easy to configure properly”. I get that it would be cooler if it worked OOTB, but sometimes that isn’t the case. It goes both ways, as well. It’s hard to generalize based on few occurrences, but I also had problems long ago with a mainboard with its Realtek audio drivers on Windows which didn’t work. Don’t remember the details because it was long ago but I had to hunt for a very specific driver version from Realtek (wasn’t easy to find), and couldn’t use the one the mainboard vendor provided as the Realtek driver, nor the one provided by Windows by default.
Anyway, of course Windows is generally better supported on most notebooks, I won’t deny that, but that’s simply due to market share, not because it’s somehow made better. That’s important to realize. If Linux had 80% market share, it would be the other way round, every manufacturer would absolutely ensure that their driver will work on all their distro targets and all their hardware models. In the Linux world, the drivers are sometimes made by 3rd party developers because otherwise there would be no driver at all, and so it’s better to have a mostly functional driver than none at all. And that’s also just because the vendors CAN ignore Linux based on marketshare. They shouldn’t, but they can, and it makes short-term financial sense to do so, so it happens.
Of course, if they market some of their models as explicitly Linux-friendly, they should absolutely ensure that such things will work OOTB. But even if they don’t, it’s usually not hard to make it work.
new laptops and Windows 11, basically anything works
Only because the manufacturer HAS to ensure that it works, while he DOESN’T HAVE to ensure that Linux will play nice with that hardware as well. I recommend using either notebooks from Linux-specific manufacturers (I had good experiences with Tuxedo for example) or you continue to use the “Linux-centric” notebook models from Dell/HP/… and then simply troubleshoot any shortcomings these might have.
I don’t know the model but it’s very likely that it’s a simple configuration issue. And I wouldn’t recommend using the manufacturer’s default OS. Especially not with Windows notebooks. Always reinstall a fresh, unmodified OS, and work from there. I’d even assume that if you leave out any vendor-specific software or kernel modules, your problems will probably vanish already.
I have effectively added €500 to my budget
That’s an unfortunate reality also in other areas. Smaller vendors can’t produce in mass quantities, and so they have to sell their stuff for more money, even though it seems counter-intuitive at first. But this is also the case with e.g. the Librem 5 mobile phone which is also very expensive (but a great option if you want a mainline Linux phone) [in this case, it’s very expensive becaue you not only pay for the hardware, but also for the software development time], or well anything which isn’t cheaply produced on a mass scale where you get volume discounts. So in a sense, if you want to change the status quo, you have to pay extra. So yes, buying a brand new Linux notebook isn’t cheap, unless you want to specifically use an older notebook where Linux also happens to run on. But on the other hand, buying a pure Linux notebook also should generally ensure that it will work well. Similar to how when you buy hardware from Apple, they will ensure that OS X runs well on it.
I don’t think that you can generalize anything from your or your friend’s experience, so it seems likely that your friend misconfigured something or installed something the wrong way, leading to such stability problems. General tip: stability issues are almost always driver-related. Same as on Windows. So first try to remove all non-essential drivers (kernel modules on Linux) and see whether that improves stability. And, of course, check the logs. In most cases, they will point out the issue. I’ve also installed Linux on several “Windows-only” (not marketed as Linux compatible) notebooks and it ran just fine without ANY stability or graphics issues. I have a Lenovo ThinkPad for work and it runs Arch Linux, it’s probably more stable than the Win11 it’s supposed to run with. At least among my colleagues who run Win11 on it, I’m the only one who didn’t yet have a driver or update issue within its lifespan. One of those colleagues even had to reinstall Win11 after a borked update. I also use Tuxedo notebooks (Linux-compatible by default) personally and they’re great as well. But of course I never use vendor-supplied software, so I’m not affected if such software behaves badly. I always configure my systems the way I want them, starting from a vanilla base.
Why would you throw away so much money for new and shitty hardware, if Linux runs perfectly on old robust devices, which can be bought for a fraction of what you invested?
I’ve thrown Linux on every laptop I’ve ever owned, and a couple of family members laptops as well and the past 15 years and haven’t encountered 1/10th of the issues they you have.
Complaining about broken suspend is funny because Microsoft basically killed S3 sleep in favour of the battery sucking S0. If anything it works better in Linux because you won’t open up your laptop to find that Windows Update fucking ran in the background while it was sitting closed in your backpack and rebooted.
I think your issue might be more of an AMD issue. They have a long history of buggy mobile hardware even on Windows.
I mean hell I threw Fedora on to my Intel MacBook Pro and the only real annoyance I had was not being able to reliably disable the SPDIF light in the 3.5mm jack.
I’m currently using the non-linux version of the XPS 13 2-in-1 and my OS experience is actually the opposite of your friends. I can install any Linux ISO without issue, but the standard Win 11 ISO refuses to work because it can’t detect any storage drives.
As far as daily driving Linux on it, the only things that don’t work are the fingerprint reader and webcam. It’s a bit of a piss off given that non-touchscreen version uses similar spec hardware that does support it but it doesn’t really affect daily use.
I’ve used Linux on my private laptop for the past few years, never had any major issues. Work desktop is running Ubuntu, no major problems except for the odd bit of poorly maintained software (niche science things, so that’s not really a Linux issue). Laptop breaks, I get a Windows 11 laptop from work…and I’ve had so many problems. Updates keep breaking everything, and I’ve had to do a factory reset more than once since the recovery after those updates also always failed. Wish I had my good old Linux laptop back :(
Hell, i personally run into MORE issues on windows than linux which is why in 2020 when proton became pretty big news i made the final switch and have not looked back. I use windows in my work laptop cause work makes me, other than that i dont touch windows based systems and i live with more stability running mint.
Same… The principal engineer on this project also referred to me learning C# as my first exposure to a “real programming language”
After already being advanced in Python
And familiar with C, C++, JavaScript.
I think what he meant by “real” is it comes out of the box with proprietary windows components that aren’t going to work anywhere else and don’t have human readable code.
I was flirting with Linux for 20 years. There was always something that put me off an I went back to Windows. Recently I installed ubuntu with Kde plasma and I’m not going back. It just works and is heaps faster on older hardware. The old driver issues are gone, compatibility is awesome. The only issue is getting used to new software names.
Surprisingly good. It’s no longer that depressing list of the same handful of open source games. These days you can be fairly confident most games will run OK, especially if you’re running Steam.
For single player, the majority of games should work just fine. Most gaming issues nowadays are either because of invase DRM or anticheat, but more and more games are getting support. A large part of it is thanks to the steam deck.
Same. I started with Ubuntu like a decade ago. I hated it and didn’t really see the fuss, kind of gave up.
But then I started putting in tons of time in rasbian, and windows kept getting more and more… Well, windows. I eventually realized how much more I liked working on stuff on the pi, and just needed proper hardware. That’s also when I started to understand the differences between distros. I’m not flaming Ubuntu (I’m not really smart enough to have an opinion), it was just a lot of hastle for something I didn’t understand the upside of yet.
Been wrestling with my first all Linux (Debian) box. It’s a bit of a learning curve but there’s this weird headspace it frees up. It does what I tell it. There’s no random software that shows up. There’s nothing I can’t nuke. No surveys on my favorite BBQ dish in my Taskbar (true story). It’s so godamn nice. It’s the opposite of a black box.
Im getting another (3rd) box specifically to slowly replace my current desktop. Ill be fooling around with WINE and whatnot for the software I need for work, probably setting up a small windows partition for when I absolutely need it. But all in all I’ll be 90% penguin by years end.
I dual boot fedora with plasma (it has all my laptop drivers without me having to install anything) with Windows and it’s pretty great, but I was out of Linux for a long time and there’s things I don’t remember. So I’m missing stuff and don’t have the time to relearn what I knew 20 years ago.
It works well enough for day to day tasks and dev work. Windows works well enough to run some games.
Honestly, my Win11 works well enough for my day 2 day use. I don’t have to troubleshoot any random issues I may encountered in Linux (I use Nvidia). I turned off all the telemetry settings I could but let’s be real, I am still using Google and all the big social media.
Win10 gave me more BSODs too. My only tip for the few Windows user here, do a fresh install instead of upgrade.
Linux desktop just ain’t worth it for a gamer; when it works it’s great, when it doesn’t - I don’t want to spend anymore of my limited time to fix or make it work.
For the most part there is practically no difference between 10 and 11 minus changes in UI and higher HW requirements. If someone liked 10, do not see why 11 would be different. Same in theory could be said about 8.1 and 10. Most of the UI changes are better IMO, but there are some annoyances mainly related to taskbar.
I believe the only thing that many could dislike and have impact on daily work, would be the new context menu. It can be swapped to old one, but as of now there is no easy setting / toggle for that.
I sort of want to try barebones/native experience now. Old context menu can be accessed by holding shift when needed so it does not bother me much, probably there is a simple registry fix as well if you would want to always get it by default.
For me only main initial annoyance with W11 was no seconds for clock in taskbar, but that was added some time ago so I am fine.
Previosly I used start replacement Classic Shell, but not anymore. Kind of realized I do search instead of clicking what I want anyways. Besides Win7 like start menu looking more pleasant for me, I do not care about it much anymore.
I like newest OS versions. Visually I do like it better as well. Kind of wish I could get back rectangular design though, not a fan of rounded corners, but that is very minor thing. When I say nothing much has changed, I mean the backend, backwards compatibility. Everything you know about Windows since 8.1 still applies + some additional features, improvements.
Do not have ads. Maybe because I am in Europe or maybe because I have Education (Same as Pro Enterprise) license or because I am using local and not MS account.
Do not care about telemetry. Have disabled most “personalization” things. I am fine with MS collecting random basic telemetry like HW inventory / SW crashes or whatever they collect.
Made a mistake about comparison. Education is comparable to Enterprise and not Pro. Have experience only for these 2 editions so no idea what’s the situation with Home and Pro and if there really are ads that cannot be disabled.
Just the other day I was posting complaining about a thing I was trying to do that should have been simple but Linux made really hard for some reason. Still prefer it to Windows tbh.
Oh, that’s why I moved from W10. My audio card refused to work with this OS. The solution: go back to W8.1 which I just skipped as hell. I could never get rid of that problem in W10, BSOD as soon as it rebooted into W10. No matter what I tried, couldn’t debug the problem. Fuck it, Linux may be complicated, but at least you end up knowing what’s going on. I can’t go back to not knowing.
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Everyone acts like nvidia support on linux is completely broken. I game with nvidia on mine regularly and have never had a driver bug.
My wife and I play Grim Dawn and other ARPGs on a regular basis. I run Ubuntu 23.04 (Snap-less, of course); she runs Windows 10. I ALWAYS host, and that should tell you something…
A grim dawn player, how is the game? Their updates actually add things these days? I have the game but not played it too much but I was surprised they still update it
My wife and I have somewhere around 450 hours in it (each). It’s fantastic.
It’s not that it’s broken, it’s that the open source driver stack and AMD cards are a superior experience. The Nvidia Linux driver is just like the Windows driver.
I think it’s more that they are broken (esp. on Wayland) and that they are closed source and that they are not pre-installed in Mesa and that they lack basic features such as GAMMA_LUT for night light on Wayland…
Meanwhile, Wayland itself is still in a state of perpetual beta and lacks basic functionality regarding a vast number of features.
It comes by default on plenty of distros and people don’t even notice the change.
In the meanwhile, nvidia doesn’t support the linux kernel itself (though it is changing slowly) that’s why it can’t support wayland.
Except people do notice the change, as a workaround many still rely on certain aspects of X via Xwayland in an attempt to keep things running. Even Steam doesn’t support Wayland.
Fact is, Wayland’s been in development for a good decade or more, it’s still in a state of perpetual beta, and that’s a situation that isn’t likely to change any time soon.
You do realize that the whole of meaningful architecture we have builds on, and often gives way for legacy ones? XWayland is made by Wayland, because obviously not every software will port overnight or ever. That’s a positive thing.
It’s almost like the linux community is not controlled by a dictator like Apple, where they can just say “we are using this API from next version, if you wanna work, port”. Wayland required a critical mass before it actually started flying - but it definitely flies now.
Xwayland makes use of legacy features of X. If we were to compleately drop all aspects of X tomorrow, the Linux desktop would essentially compleately break and become unusable.
The fact is, at this point in time after 10 years or more of development, Wayland is still very much in a state of perpetual beta. At this point in time, and for the foreseeable future, Wayland involves compromises that make it unsuitable for many users.
Hopefully things improve in time, the problem is development is progressing at snails pace.
To clarify on why it’s especially terrifying, for the nVidia drivers to be closed source, they’ve been allowed to add binaries into the Linux kernel. Nobody but nVidia knows what those binaries actually contain.
The entire
linux-firmwarepackage is just a conjuntion of binary blobs from different vendos (one of with is AMD). This is nothing special.Sure, and I don’t like any of it.
NVIDIA user here, my experience is largely faultless and performance is great.
Raytracing is mostly fucked though, otherwise I’d be gaming exclusively on Linux as well. Aside from that though I’ve never had any issues with Nvidia on Linux.
What do you mean it’s fucked? I’ve read this before but honestly Cyberpunk 2077 runs way better for me on Linux and I think it looks great. Never checked settings in detail since it seemed to do a good job of automatically selecting graphics settings. I have an Nvidia card on pop_OS and it works better than I ever thought gaming on Linux could!
Is that using Dynamic Res Scaling? I was also impressed with the ray tracing performance of cp2077 on linux until I realized that was doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
The reality is, it’s going through a translation layer, so it’s simply not possible for linux to run better than windows on the same hw, unless there is something hampering the windows config. But it does run better than I thought it could.
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Presses X to doubt…
Way to prove my point.
To be fair, Nvidia support on Linux has been historically quite poor, with users having to manually install drivers (something the average person shouldn’t have to think about). Though even that has gotten much better recently, with Debian now allowing forks to have proprietary drivers built in.
I would say Nvidia historically (10+ years) had great support for Linux.
They were officially releasing drivers with feature parity to Windows. To get real manufacturer supported drivers, for a GPU none the less, was a breath of fresh air. This was in the era of having to be careful what wifi card you choose.
Sure, you had to manually install the drivers, which was not the norm with Linux, but that was still the case with Windows too. It wasn’t until Windows 7 that “search for a driver” feature in Windows actually did something.
It’s really only been recently, with AMD releasing official GPU drivers for the kernel, that things have changed. If you were putting a GPU in a Linux computer 10 years ago it absolutely would have been Nvidia.
By the way, Ubuntu and probably most Ubuntu-based distros (like Linux Mint) also have driver manager (
ubuntu-drivers) that handles drivers similarly to the “search for driver” feature. Except thatubuntu-driversalso let’s you select between multiple drivers and let’s you easily uninstall them.There’s also pop!_OS which can come preinstalled with Nvidia drivers
Pop is a fork of Ubuntu, which is a fork of Debian.
I misread your comment, I’m super tired. But afaik pop has been the only distro to have an ISO with Nvidia drivers built in for years now, I think
Fyi Manjaro also has the option to install with proprietary drivers.
The option to install, or an ISO that comes pre-installed with the drivers?
Pre-installed, you can choose between proprietary or open source on booting the installation ISO, and depending on what you picked it will install.
Can confirm, recently installed it on a friends’ dell G3 laptop and I was quite impressed to see that it recognized both the nvidia graphics card and the intel GPU without a hitch, and installed the nvidia proprietary driver directly from the live usb.
Then I installed it on my wife’s mother thinkpad x260, because she was bored with Windows “getting in [her] way” (her words, not mine) and wanted to try something else (70 years old grandma, main usage is web browsing, mails, some accounting on LibreOffice Calc, Zoom with her friends and… that’s all). Everything worked out of the box (well, the x260 is pretty standard by the way). I showed her how to upgrade, how to use her software, how to install or uninstall software from the package manager GUI, and how to use workspaces. She didn’t call for help once, and, for the moment, when I ask her about it she’s quite pleased with it.
I’m a Debian and OpenBSD guy but recently got a second hand thinkpad yoga X390 laptop and decided to give Pop a try on it. From touchscreen to touchpad gestures to automatic screen rotation in tent or tablet mode - everything works out of the box (except for the fingerprint reader, but well, we’re used to that). Basically it’s Ubuntu 22.04 LTS without the snap hassle and a recent kernel (6.4 right now). For what I tested it on, it’s always been a pleasant experience.
Of course, YMMV, and I might as well go back to my trusty Debian Stable + flatpak setup if things goes awry but right now I’m quite impressed with what they’ve managed to do.
And? Whats that to do with the parent comment?
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Don’t you have to do that anyway if you install Windows yourself?
If you’re getting a prebuilt (which most people do) then drivers will be preinstalled.
Well, same if you had Linux pre-installed.
Unfortnetly, very little hardware comes with Linux preinstalled.
Let me present you with a few:
I just checked Lenovo from Google Search. I only checked the British site, but if you select “No OS” instead of Windows 11 Home, it’s -90£ (115USD)!
Holy hell! I didn’t realize Windows license makes up such a big part of the price.
Now I wonder how much of the price it could be with the cheap Umax laptops sold in Czech republic and Slovakia. They start at €130 with Windows Pro license.
I believe Windows license cost change based on GDP of the country where it’s sold. So might not be the same savings, unfortunately.
Lenovo also have Red Hat Certified on alot of their computers, which mean every component will work with RHEL.
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I use Windows for work and gaming, MacOS for app development (mostly because I can code for iOS and Android in one environment), and ChromeOS for my daily browsing.
I just enjoy how chrome always works when I need to just browse the internet or buy something online without issue.
They have a point. I’m in the market for a new laptop and I have, so far, returned two of them.
First, I tried a Huawei Matebook 16. I was foolish, but I thought it was “easy”. No NVidia, no dGPU at all - just part that looked very standard. It was based on the info I had gathered from a few years of Linux usage: “Basically avoid NVidia and you’re good”. It was anything but. Broken suspend, WiFi was horrible, random deadlocks, extreme slowness at times (as if the RYZEN 7 wasn’t Ryzen 7-ing) to become less smooth than my 5 year old Intel laptop, and broken audio codec (Senary Audio) that didn’t work at all on the live, and worked erratically on the installed system using generic hd-audio drivers.
I had a ~€1500 budget, but I raised it to buy a €1700 ThinkPad P16s AMD. No dGPU to speak of, sold with pre loaded Linux, boasting Canonical and Red Hat hardware certifications.
I had:
Boggles my mind that the 2 biggest enterprise Linux vendors took this laptop, ran a “thorough hardware certification process” on it and let it pass. Is this a pass? How long have they tried it? Have they even tried suspending?
Of course, that was a return. But when I think about new laptops and Windows 11, basically anything works. You don’t have to pay attention to anything: suspend will work, WiFi will work, audio and speakers as well, if you need fractional scaling you aren’t in for a world of pain, and if you want an NVidia dGPU, it does work.
Furthermore, the Windows 11 compatible CPU list is completely
unofficialarbitrary, since you can still sideload Windows 11 on “unsupported” hardware and it will run with a far higher success rate than Linux on a random laptop you buy in store now. Like, it has been confirmed to run well on ancient Intel CPUs with screens below the minimum resolution. It’s basically a skin over 10 and there are no significant kernel modifications.To be clear: I don’t like Windows, but I hate this post as a consumer of bleeding edge hardware because it hides the problem under the rug - most new hardware is Windows-centric, and Linux supported options are few and far between. Nowdays not even the manufacturer declaring Linux support is enough. This friend of mine got a Dell XPS 13 Plus Developer Edition, and if he uses ANY ISO except the default Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 audio doesn’t work at all! And my other friend with a Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition has various GPU artifacts on the screen on anything except the relative Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 image. It’s such a minefield.
I have effectively added €500 to my budget, to now reach an outrageous €2000 for a premium Linux laptop with no significant trade-offs (mostly, I want a good screen and good performance). I am considering taking a shot in the dark and pre ordering the Framework 16, effectively swaying from traditional laptop makers entirely and hoping a fully customized laptop by a company that has been long committed to Linux support will be different.
Have you tried updating the kernel? If it’s been rated to work with a certain Linux distribution and it doesn’t work on yours then chances are that the distribution they tested with is using a newer kernel.
That being said new hardware can be quite problematic on Linux. I personally haven’t had issues with Huawei Matebooks provided I installed the newer kernels, but Apple Silicon was a nightmare.
I’ve never had suspend work correctly on Linux. It’s always been buggy in Windows as well. You can boot from SSDs about just as fast as waking from suspend, so I don’t even try to use it anymore.
Probably marketing speech for “an intern tested it once with the default setup and he reported there were no errors”
That is sometimes broken because of broken UEFI/ACPI implementations which the Windows drivers were made to respect and work around, but the Linux drivers who are often developed not by the hardware manufacture himself but rather 3rd parties who implement them according to the available docs/specifications, will then result in a semi-broken functionality because implementing something according to the specification doesn’t mean much unfortunately if there are quirks or bugs you have to circumvent as well. This improves over time though with more adoption of Linux. When you compare the hardware support of Linux today vs. 20 years ago, it’s become much, much better already due to more developers and users working on it / reporting issues, and also more and more hardware vendors becoming actually involved in the Linux driver development.
Definitely not normal. But it’s likely that it’s just a small configuration or driver issue. Since you didn’t provide any details, I just leave it as “easy to configure properly”. I get that it would be cooler if it worked OOTB, but sometimes that isn’t the case. It goes both ways, as well. It’s hard to generalize based on few occurrences, but I also had problems long ago with a mainboard with its Realtek audio drivers on Windows which didn’t work. Don’t remember the details because it was long ago but I had to hunt for a very specific driver version from Realtek (wasn’t easy to find), and couldn’t use the one the mainboard vendor provided as the Realtek driver, nor the one provided by Windows by default. Anyway, of course Windows is generally better supported on most notebooks, I won’t deny that, but that’s simply due to market share, not because it’s somehow made better. That’s important to realize. If Linux had 80% market share, it would be the other way round, every manufacturer would absolutely ensure that their driver will work on all their distro targets and all their hardware models. In the Linux world, the drivers are sometimes made by 3rd party developers because otherwise there would be no driver at all, and so it’s better to have a mostly functional driver than none at all. And that’s also just because the vendors CAN ignore Linux based on marketshare. They shouldn’t, but they can, and it makes short-term financial sense to do so, so it happens. Of course, if they market some of their models as explicitly Linux-friendly, they should absolutely ensure that such things will work OOTB. But even if they don’t, it’s usually not hard to make it work.
Only because the manufacturer HAS to ensure that it works, while he DOESN’T HAVE to ensure that Linux will play nice with that hardware as well. I recommend using either notebooks from Linux-specific manufacturers (I had good experiences with Tuxedo for example) or you continue to use the “Linux-centric” notebook models from Dell/HP/… and then simply troubleshoot any shortcomings these might have. I don’t know the model but it’s very likely that it’s a simple configuration issue. And I wouldn’t recommend using the manufacturer’s default OS. Especially not with Windows notebooks. Always reinstall a fresh, unmodified OS, and work from there. I’d even assume that if you leave out any vendor-specific software or kernel modules, your problems will probably vanish already.
That’s an unfortunate reality also in other areas. Smaller vendors can’t produce in mass quantities, and so they have to sell their stuff for more money, even though it seems counter-intuitive at first. But this is also the case with e.g. the Librem 5 mobile phone which is also very expensive (but a great option if you want a mainline Linux phone) [in this case, it’s very expensive becaue you not only pay for the hardware, but also for the software development time], or well anything which isn’t cheaply produced on a mass scale where you get volume discounts. So in a sense, if you want to change the status quo, you have to pay extra. So yes, buying a brand new Linux notebook isn’t cheap, unless you want to specifically use an older notebook where Linux also happens to run on. But on the other hand, buying a pure Linux notebook also should generally ensure that it will work well. Similar to how when you buy hardware from Apple, they will ensure that OS X runs well on it.
I don’t think that you can generalize anything from your or your friend’s experience, so it seems likely that your friend misconfigured something or installed something the wrong way, leading to such stability problems. General tip: stability issues are almost always driver-related. Same as on Windows. So first try to remove all non-essential drivers (kernel modules on Linux) and see whether that improves stability. And, of course, check the logs. In most cases, they will point out the issue. I’ve also installed Linux on several “Windows-only” (not marketed as Linux compatible) notebooks and it ran just fine without ANY stability or graphics issues. I have a Lenovo ThinkPad for work and it runs Arch Linux, it’s probably more stable than the Win11 it’s supposed to run with. At least among my colleagues who run Win11 on it, I’m the only one who didn’t yet have a driver or update issue within its lifespan. One of those colleagues even had to reinstall Win11 after a borked update. I also use Tuxedo notebooks (Linux-compatible by default) personally and they’re great as well. But of course I never use vendor-supplied software, so I’m not affected if such software behaves badly. I always configure my systems the way I want them, starting from a vanilla base.
Why would you throw away so much money for new and shitty hardware, if Linux runs perfectly on old robust devices, which can be bought for a fraction of what you invested?
I’ve thrown Linux on every laptop I’ve ever owned, and a couple of family members laptops as well and the past 15 years and haven’t encountered 1/10th of the issues they you have.
Complaining about broken suspend is funny because Microsoft basically killed S3 sleep in favour of the battery sucking S0. If anything it works better in Linux because you won’t open up your laptop to find that Windows Update fucking ran in the background while it was sitting closed in your backpack and rebooted.
I think your issue might be more of an AMD issue. They have a long history of buggy mobile hardware even on Windows.
I mean hell I threw Fedora on to my Intel MacBook Pro and the only real annoyance I had was not being able to reliably disable the SPDIF light in the 3.5mm jack.
I’m currently using the non-linux version of the XPS 13 2-in-1 and my OS experience is actually the opposite of your friends. I can install any Linux ISO without issue, but the standard Win 11 ISO refuses to work because it can’t detect any storage drives.
As far as daily driving Linux on it, the only things that don’t work are the fingerprint reader and webcam. It’s a bit of a piss off given that non-touchscreen version uses similar spec hardware that does support it but it doesn’t really affect daily use.
Buy a framework. Only Linux issue is screen tearing on X11 with fractional scaling. Wayland is fine.
Ah yes… it is easy as long as you do something difficult first.
Reminds me of that comment on Dropbox where some guy said it’s going to fail because he can easily build something similar with an ftp server.
Nothing started easy, someone has to figure out the hard part for everyone else to benefit.
Dropbox is even making money…(I am shocked as it sends tech firms rarely do.)
How is Dropbox making money and how is it possible it is still around? It can be easily replaced by an ftp server.
Oh wait, they sell data for money, my fault.
Linux desktop is garbage. Devs should focus their efforts elsewhere.
I’ve used Linux on my private laptop for the past few years, never had any major issues. Work desktop is running Ubuntu, no major problems except for the odd bit of poorly maintained software (niche science things, so that’s not really a Linux issue). Laptop breaks, I get a Windows 11 laptop from work…and I’ve had so many problems. Updates keep breaking everything, and I’ve had to do a factory reset more than once since the recovery after those updates also always failed. Wish I had my good old Linux laptop back :(
Let me tell you the story about a stuck USB update on my work laptop.
Hell, i personally run into MORE issues on windows than linux which is why in 2020 when proton became pretty big news i made the final switch and have not looked back. I use windows in my work laptop cause work makes me, other than that i dont touch windows based systems and i live with more stability running mint.
The company I work at only works with windows Servers
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OpenSSH runs on windows server as well. You can definitely SSH in to run commands.
Or just use VSCode to run remote terminals and never leave your own VSCode instance to fully manage all your servers, Windows and Linux.
I have pets too!
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How does one even made such a decision, who is sane and knows technology?
Because our chef’s a linux hater and he also got like stuck in the 80s
omg… why would you work for a company like this? Working with shitty technology all day could lead to depression.
Same… The principal engineer on this project also referred to me learning C# as my first exposure to a “real programming language”
After already being advanced in Python
And familiar with C, C++, JavaScript.
I think what he meant by “real” is it comes out of the box with proprietary windows components that aren’t going to work anywhere else and don’t have human readable code.
Linux is cool and all but can it tell if I’m watching porn and suggest me other porn like windows 11?
Is the other porn at least relevant?
For Microsofts sake it sure better be
Windows 11 on a Pentium 4 - barely usable, though
A good linux distro(32 bit if needed) will run a lot faster!
I was flirting with Linux for 20 years. There was always something that put me off an I went back to Windows. Recently I installed ubuntu with Kde plasma and I’m not going back. It just works and is heaps faster on older hardware. The old driver issues are gone, compatibility is awesome. The only issue is getting used to new software names.
How’s gaming support?
Surprisingly good. It’s no longer that depressing list of the same handful of open source games. These days you can be fairly confident most games will run OK, especially if you’re running Steam.
For single player, the majority of games should work just fine. Most gaming issues nowadays are either because of invase DRM or anticheat, but more and more games are getting support. A large part of it is thanks to the steam deck.
Through Lutris, really good
Decent, with proton I can play most games with no issues
A large majority of games on steam work via proton.
For games outside steam, there’s a pretty good community around wine wrappers. I think it’s called lutris.
I used to play GTAV, assassins creed, and other AAA titles through it 4 years ago and its only gotten better.
Same. I started with Ubuntu like a decade ago. I hated it and didn’t really see the fuss, kind of gave up.
But then I started putting in tons of time in rasbian, and windows kept getting more and more… Well, windows. I eventually realized how much more I liked working on stuff on the pi, and just needed proper hardware. That’s also when I started to understand the differences between distros. I’m not flaming Ubuntu (I’m not really smart enough to have an opinion), it was just a lot of hastle for something I didn’t understand the upside of yet.
Been wrestling with my first all Linux (Debian) box. It’s a bit of a learning curve but there’s this weird headspace it frees up. It does what I tell it. There’s no random software that shows up. There’s nothing I can’t nuke. No surveys on my favorite BBQ dish in my Taskbar (true story). It’s so godamn nice. It’s the opposite of a black box.
Im getting another (3rd) box specifically to slowly replace my current desktop. Ill be fooling around with WINE and whatnot for the software I need for work, probably setting up a small windows partition for when I absolutely need it. But all in all I’ll be 90% penguin by years end.
I dual boot fedora with plasma (it has all my laptop drivers without me having to install anything) with Windows and it’s pretty great, but I was out of Linux for a long time and there’s things I don’t remember. So I’m missing stuff and don’t have the time to relearn what I knew 20 years ago.
It works well enough for day to day tasks and dev work. Windows works well enough to run some games.
I don’t think I’ve met anyone who enjoys windows 11 unless they’re like 75 years old and only click on google chrome and the power off button
Honestly, my Win11 works well enough for my day 2 day use. I don’t have to troubleshoot any random issues I may encountered in Linux (I use Nvidia). I turned off all the telemetry settings I could but let’s be real, I am still using Google and all the big social media.
Win10 gave me more BSODs too. My only tip for the few Windows user here, do a fresh install instead of upgrade.
Linux desktop just ain’t worth it for a gamer; when it works it’s great, when it doesn’t - I don’t want to spend anymore of my limited time to fix or make it work.
For the most part there is practically no difference between 10 and 11 minus changes in UI and higher HW requirements. If someone liked 10, do not see why 11 would be different. Same in theory could be said about 8.1 and 10. Most of the UI changes are better IMO, but there are some annoyances mainly related to taskbar.
I believe the only thing that many could dislike and have impact on daily work, would be the new context menu. It can be swapped to old one, but as of now there is no easy setting / toggle for that.
I highly recommend this little tool to get back the old taskbar and context menu:
https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
I sort of want to try barebones/native experience now. Old context menu can be accessed by holding shift when needed so it does not bother me much, probably there is a simple registry fix as well if you would want to always get it by default.
For me only main initial annoyance with W11 was no seconds for clock in taskbar, but that was added some time ago so I am fine.
Previosly I used start replacement Classic Shell, but not anymore. Kind of realized I do search instead of clicking what I want anyways. Besides Win7 like start menu looking more pleasant for me, I do not care about it much anymore.
There’s even more telemetry and built in ads with Win11 over Win10. If they’re so similar otherwise, why would anyone upgrade to Win11?
ProEnterprise) license or because I am using local and not MS account.Education edition is the best edition. It does not have ads, which is not true of Pro.
Made a mistake about comparison. Education is comparable to Enterprise and not Pro. Have experience only for these 2 editions so no idea what’s the situation with Home and Pro and if there really are ads that cannot be disabled.
The new CPU requirements for Windows 11 are why I wiped it and am now on Linux Mint. No dual-booting.
Just the other day I was posting complaining about a thing I was trying to do that should have been simple but Linux made really hard for some reason. Still prefer it to Windows tbh.
Oh, that’s why I moved from W10. My audio card refused to work with this OS. The solution: go back to W8.1 which I just skipped as hell. I could never get rid of that problem in W10, BSOD as soon as it rebooted into W10. No matter what I tried, couldn’t debug the problem. Fuck it, Linux may be complicated, but at least you end up knowing what’s going on. I can’t go back to not knowing.
The other day, I dug out an old scanner to use. No mac drivers ever and no Win10 drivers. Worked on my Mint laptop with no drivers to install.